Curse

DarkSpirit · Jun 09, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keekles

AoE scatter = right into your backline. I have no idea why you think that's a good thing.

Answer:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiluna

Really, only real problem that melee heroes have currently is the AoE scatter AI, which makes then run like headless chickens, but other than that, most of the "chains" for warriors work fine and like they should. So in areas without much aoe (they do exist) you can run them without a problem.

Melee monsters share the same AI as melee heroes, so you can exploit the same weaknesses through AoE making them stupid and quite useless. For example if you melee, and they run from AoE, you switch target, and they run back into the AoE to enage you.

slayer5555 · Jun 09, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

I tried to explain more then several times,
when u use meteor shower there will be no scattering.
How u think the solo E/A build would work if they always scatterd?
And above all of this the hero seemingly rly knows when to use MS.

Snow Bunny · Jun 09, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer5555

I tried to explain more then several times,
when u use meteor shower there will be no scattering.
How u think the solo E/A build would work if they always scatterd?
And above all of this the hero seemingly rly knows when to use MS.

Let ME explain.
Your build is bad. There's no synergy. Eles work well with eles, Minions work well with curse necros, and Physicals work with physicals.
You're putting 3 random builds together and saying,"/goteam"
Except, it's more like "Gloat" all over your team's body after it's been savaged by HM charr.
For all of you trying to make Hero builds, read Beaver's guide on them.

Oh, and slayer5555, 'seemingly really' doesn't work grammatically, aside from the fact that it takes a retard to not know when to use Meteor Shower.

slayer5555 · Jun 09, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Let ME explain.
Your build is bad. There's no synergy. Eles work well with eles, Minions work well with curse necros, and Physicals work with physicals.
You're putting 3 random builds together and saying,"/goteam"
Except, it's more like "Gloat" all over your team's body after it's been savaged by HM charr.
For all of you trying to make Hero builds, read Beaver's guide on them.

Oh, and slayer5555, 'seemingly really' doesn't work grammatically, aside from the fact that it takes a retard to not know when to use Meteor Shower.

FFS u obviously didn't even tried the build out.
And above all what do all of u people got with synergy??
It doesn't mean a teambuild is bad cus it has no synergy -_-',
no to mention how maney balanced teams pwn.
Well I guess there will always be the haterz, and on the otherside u also got the ppl who try builds out and enjoy the build.
Then on the otherside its just like the Ursan haters of whom 90% swear to stick by the sabway.
So as I said there always will be ppl who luf the build, and ppl who hate the build.
But ffs don't say a build suck just by the looks of it, at least try it out...

Snow Bunny · Jun 09, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer5555

FFS u obviously didn't even tried the build out.
And above all what do all of u people got with synergy??
It doesn't mean a teambuild is bad cus it has no synergy -_-',
no to mention how maney balanced teams pwn.
Well I guess there will always be the haterz, and on the otherside u also got the ppl who try builds out and enjoy the build.
Then on the otherside its just like the Ursan haters of whom 90% swear to stick by the sabway.
So as I said there always will be ppl who luf the build, and ppl who hate the build.
But ffs don't say a build suck just by the looks of it, at least try it out...

what?

Oh, and by the way, it's bad.

However - Earthshaker Warrior+N/Rt Orders w/ Splinter+Cruel Spear Paragon = pew pew, pew pew pew, pew

slayer5555 · Jun 09, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Yup I'm not english, and I use slang.

FlamingMetroid · Jun 09, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer5555

FFS u obviously didn't even tried the build out.
And above all what do all of u people got with synergy??
It doesn't mean a teambuild is bad cus it has no synergy -_-',
no to mention how maney balanced teams pwn.
Well I guess there will always be the haterz, and on the otherside u also got the ppl who try builds out and enjoy the build.
Then on the otherside its just like the Ursan haters of whom 90% swear to stick by the sabway.
So as I said there always will be ppl who luf the build, and ppl who hate the build.
But ffs don't say a build suck just by the looks of it, at least try it out...

slayer, If you still don't get why your build is in no way beyond mediocre, then please stop posting. Just because it works doesn't mean it's good, just because other people think its good doesn't mean its good. It is a balanced team build made out of bad-mediocre builds, it doesn't need to be tested, it will work as well as the sum of its parts. Synergizing team builds tend to work better because every or most characters benefit from each other, whereas your team cannot directly benefit from any other heroes. Examples: Sabway: MM makes minions, minions die, SS and N/Rt now have infinity energy to make more things die and make your team not die. Racway: Orders derv uses orders, you have infinity adrenal to spam SY!, commandagon has infinity adrenal to spam stunning strike and chants, motigon has infinity adrenal to spam chants, your team is invincible. Synergy. Your team build: Ele uses spells then sits there for a bit while his skills recharge, MM makes some minions, kinda tanks, and gives mediocre support, Monk heals as well as heroes can heal, probably works for most areas especially if you're using Ursan. No synergy. Balanced team builds are good in PvP, where your enemy is human and can better adapt to different situations, but in PvE where enemies are o-so-steamrollable and stupid its better to make a team build that does something specific really well.

DarkSpirit · Jun 09, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by slayer5555

I tried to explain more then several times,
when u use meteor shower there will be no scattering.
How u think the solo E/A build would work if they always scatterd?
And above all of this the hero seemingly rly knows when to use MS.

I dont really like to bring MS (long recharge, long casting time, high energy) and on my heroes unless for certain specific areas. Besides, Cynn already has MS if I am playing in GWEN.

The Meth · Jun 09, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Why hasn't the thread title been changed yet?

May I suggest "My First RandomWay"?

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 05:26 PM // 17:26

A good player would know the outcome of a build by looking at it's design. Especially when things like this (Nuker) have been tried and tested, and no utility on a midline guy is bad anyway. Not to mention Bonetti's Defense is bad. Even scarier, it's a hero Monk set to avoid.

By the way, pure healing is bad unless it's something that has heavy damage mitigation in the background, such as Imbagon, and Enfeebling Blood / minions.

payne · Jun 09, 2008, 05:37 PM // 17:37

the reason u're getting flamed so strongly apart from your constant use of "ffs your an idiot - did u evn try ta use da buildz"

your title name :

better then sab-way) - flame-train pulling in!

if you hadnt put that in then people would have given constructive criticism about it...but your title / slang usage / raging / insulting posters is guarentee failure!

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 05:38 PM // 17:38

^
Nah, it's also the extremely bad builds.

Nightmares Hammer · Jun 09, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlamingMetroid

OMG hay gize, I totaly haz a mediocre hero build that I think is better that subways!111

Sums up this thread rather nicely...

DarkSpirit · Jun 09, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

A good player would know the outcome of a build by looking at it's design. Especially when things like this (Nuker) have been tried and tested, and no utility on a midline guy is bad anyway.

What utility would you recommend for the Ele?

Even with some AoE scatter the Ele kills much faster than having the SS necro providing buffs to minions. Besides, it gets alittle weary to have to provide anti-blocking, physical buffing hexes etc, whenever you bring a physical then realize that they still kill slower than an Ele, who doesn't need any buffs to their attacks. So much for team synergy.

I dont consider this to be obviously better than sabway either but it does work quite well and it does kill faster in most areas without high fire resistance monsters. Sabway may have better defenses, but depending on your player's character (i.e. barbs and splinter weapon are not helping my casters much), it doesn't kill mobs as fast in HM.

Quote:

Not to mention Bonetti's Defense is bad. Even scarier, it's a hero Monk set to avoid.

Yes the monk build was bad.

Quote:

By the way, pure healing is bad unless it's something that has heavy damage mitigation in the background, such as Imbagon, and Enfeebling Blood / minions.

Not really. Sab's build doesn't have an Imbagon and her variant MM doesn't even need to bring PS or Aegis, except Dwayna's Sorrow, but yet we all know it still works right?

Enfeebling blood is nice to have, but dont really need it if you bring Aegis. I think he might have relied on Ursan Roar.

The Meth · Jun 09, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by payne

the reason u're getting flamed so strongly apart from your constant use of "ffs your an idiot - did u evn try ta use da buildz"

your title name :

better then sab-way) - flame-train pulling in!

if you hadnt put that in then people would have given constructive criticism about it...but your title / slang usage / raging / insulting posters is guarentee failure!

Still, I think half the reason he's getting flamed is because he suggested _URSAN_ in the first post and has the gall to call it balanced. It's ursan noobs like that whom the majority of posters here laugh it. The horrible grammar and slang is a close second in stupidity though.

OP comes across as a troll using the Bait and Switch tactic.

Tyla · Jun 09, 2008, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What utility would you recommend for the Ele?

[splinter weapon][ancestor's rage] both speak for themselves.
[ward against melee] for defensive utility.

Quote:

Not really. Sab's build doesn't have an Imbagon and her variant MM doesn't even need to bring PS or Aegis, except Dwayna's Sorrow, but yet we all know it still works right?

That's because of Enfeebling Blood.

Quote:

Enfeebling blood is nice to have, but dont really need it if you bring Aegis. I think he might have relied on Ursan Roar.

Enfeebling Blood is free and can be used everywhere with a 100% upkeep.

Aegis is 9 energy more, is an enchantment, and doesn't have 100% upkeep.

Snow Bunny · Jun 09, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

What utility would you recommend for the Ele?

Yes the monk build was bad.

Not really. Sab's build doesn't have an Imbagon and her variant MM doesn't even need to bring PS or Aegis, except Dwayna's Sorrow, but yet we all know it still works right?

Enfeebling blood is nice to have, but dont really need it if you bring Aegis. I think he might have relied on Ursan Roar.

Enfeebling Blood is damage mitigation.

That N/Rt also has super-heals and can spam them. A pure heal monk can't.
For an ele, utility is stuff like snares, Aegis, Splinter weapon, etc.
HA builds are a good example of utility bars on eles. I remember being forced to run a water bar with Divert Hexes as the elite.
Utility comes in all manner of appearances.

Think about it like this - the utility needs to maximize your team's strengths. In this instance, adding splinter weapon and snares means that 2 warriors will annihilate some bunched up enemies in short order. Had you not had the snares, they could kite away.

The ele is bad because Eles are less effective generally in HM. True, they're still powerful, but something like Savannah heat is going to be seriously outclassed by physical damage with buffs or armor-ignoring damage. Also, this particular ele has ridiculous cooldown times. Because of that, the ele will fire off its weak spells, then sit around useless for 30 seconds soaking up damage with 60AL, eating at monk's energy. The monk is bad because it has to actually build of adrenaline to use Bonetti's, then not cast to take in energy.

If you like, I'll make you a deal Slayer. We will race a vanquish. Me with my team and you with yours.

DarkSpirit · Jun 09, 2008, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

[splinter weapon][ancestor's rage] both speak for themselves.
[ward against melee] for defensive utility.

What good is that for the Ele? Unless you are depending on wand/splinter damage, which sucks. Ancestor's rage is only adjacent attacks and all his heroes are ranged fighters, besides his Ursan. Furthermore sabway doesn't need to bring ancestor's rage either.

And Herta already has that ward. Why replicate henchy skills when you have to bring them anyway in a 8-man team?

Quote:

That's because of Enfeebling Blood.

Enfeebling Blood is free and can be used everywhere with a 100% upkeep.

Aegis is 9 energy more, is an enchantment, and doesn't have 100% upkeep.

And enchantments are very powerful elements in this game.

Besides weakness is useful only against melee, and pretty much useless against casters. Melee monsters/heroes are scared of AoE and run from them like useless headless chickens anyway so the Ele attacks serve as both protection and strong offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

That N/Rt also has super-heals and can spam them. A pure heal monk can't.
For an ele, utility is stuff like snares, Aegis, Splinter weapon, etc.
HA builds are a good example of utility bars on eles. I remember being forced to run a water bar with Divert Hexes as the elite.
Utility comes in all manner of appearances.

I agree, his monk does suck.

Quote:

Think about it like this - the utility needs to maximize your team's strengths. In this instance, adding splinter weapon and snares means that 2 warriors will annihilate some bunched up enemies in short order. Had you not had the snares, they could kite away.

But I am not playing a warrior and melee heroes suck anyway. That is where ranged attackers come in handy, they run around aimlessly when they encounter AoE and soak up ranged attacks all that time.

Quote:

The ele is bad because Eles are less effective generally in HM. True, they're still powerful, but something like Savannah heat is going to be seriously outclassed by physical damage with buffs or armor-ignoring damage.

If that is true, then explain to me why it is killing faster in HM. I am at work now, but someone should do some damage calculations.

Quote:

Also, this particular ele has ridiculous cooldown times. Because of that, the ele will fire off its weak spells, then sit around useless for 30 seconds soaking up damage with 60AL, eating at monk's energy. The monk is bad because it has to actually build of adrenaline to use Bonetti's, then not cast to take in energy.

Somewhat true, that is why I bring Fireball in my version.

Quote:

If you like, I'll make you a deal Slayer. We will race a vanquish. Me with my team and you with yours.

Tell that to slayer.

ValaOfTheFens · Jun 09, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

Honestly, I've never used an SS hero. The truth is SS actually sucks. The reason it's used is just another case of not really having any better options to choose from. I actually used SS on my nec for ages. I was dissapointed when it jumped back to 15e (after temporarily being 10e) for abit because it's hardly worth the 15e cost sometimes. It's bad against casters usually which are often the bigger threats, and sure while it may be good against phys attackers, those can be shutdown easily by a curse nec anyways. SS requires the target to be alive to do damage, and still even then needs some time to actually do decent damage. In the time I've used it in HM, I've found it to be a pretty lacking elite. Now when were talking about using on a hero, it becomes even worse. They're rarely gonna use it on the good targets. And they might even slap it on a near-dead enemy. If you looked at the other elites in curses, they're all bad for PvE. Too conditional and PvP-based. The result is you're stuck using SS.

SS is ok on a hero if you pick the target before running into battle. But as hero SS' generally spend time using irrelevent skills I take on the role of SS when I use Sabway. That gives me a slot for another hero, which varies by location.

I have to disagree that SS is bad. In HM casters wand you like there's no tomorrow and die just as quickly to SS as melee and other ranged attackers. SV kills much more quickly though and is better in HM than SS. Though SV turns off when your enemy is almost dead and in HM that little bit of time could enable that foe to heal up. Charr Prophet ftl.

distilledwill · Jun 09, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Enfeebling is just too good to leave out of a build, I'm always straining to squeeze it into a build somewhere as mass weakness for 1 energy is just too powerful to pass up. This is what I'm on at the moment:

[build prof=E/N name="Churning Blood" box EarthMagic=12+1+1 EnergyStorage=11+1 Curses=6][Ward Against Melee][Unsteady Ground][Enfeebling Blood][Glowstone][Churning Earth][Glyph Of Lesser Energy][Earth Attunement][Resurrection Signet][/build]

[build prof=N/Rt name="Jagged Splinters" box Death=12+1+3 soul=8+1 chan=10][Jagged Bones][Animate Bone Minions][Death Nova][Blood Of The Master][Splinter Weapon][Ancestor's Rage][Spirit Rift][Signet Of Lost Souls][/build]

[build prof=P/Me name="Cruel Power Spike" box SpearMastery=12+1+1 Leadership=9+1 Command=8+1 dom=5][Vicious Attack][Harrier's Toss][Power Spike]["Go For The Eyes!"][Defensive Anthem][Anthem Of Flame][Aggressive Refrain][Signet Of Return][/build]

Variants:
[[Cry Of Frustration] rather than Power Spike on the Para.
[[Eruption] rather than Churning Earth on the Ele.
Replace splinter/AR/SR on the MM for utitlity skills such as [[Aegis], [[Dwayna's Sorrow] or [[Protective Spirit].

Its a work in progress, but my thinking is that enemies knocked down by unsteady ground and churning earth (basically, any enemy in HM) will be more likely to be hit by spirit rift and the minions will have more of a chance of surrounding them to initiate the pain.

DA para is to protect the casters, interupt the casters and provide additional DPS. DA works well as the character ive been using this on is a caster and so can take advantage of its blocking.